[Karolina1981]

Hello, I'm a Polish woman who is interested in such issues like adoption in USA, teenage pregnancy, single motherhood, etc. The issue I am interested in most is: When family separation is better than family preservation?

If I asked a Pole, I assume (!) he/she would probably say that unless a parent (parents) is COMPLETELY unfit, the child should stay with him/her. A biological family should be kept together, provided there is no abuse or neglect. I think most Poles value blood ties more than money, opportunities or family structure and therefore would say that placing a child for adoption should be considered only as a last resort.

Americans, however, have a little bit different attitude towards adoption. It is much more common here and placing an infant for adoption is often perceived as "a selfless, loving choice" which allows the infant to have "a better life", especially when a mother is very young, single and/or poor. Just as if age, poverty or marital status were good reasons to relinquish a baby.


So here are my questions for you:

1. Can teenagers be good parents? Even very young teenagers? (I'm not talking about financial stability.)

2. Under what circumstances would adoption be better than keeping a baby?

[talaniman]

So here are my questions for you:​

1. Can teenagers be good parents? Even very young teenagers? (I'm not talking about financial stability.)

Yes they can if they have a lot of love a support, especially from family, because it's really tough on your own just in general. Life can be tough when you have plenty of help, and are an adult!

2. Under what circumstances would adoption be better than keeping a baby?

When a parent is to overwhelmed with many tough issues, and ill prepared OR UNWILLING to be a parent, and has very few good options.

I recognize you are from Poland, and I from America... and a guy, so big difference in attitude and culture and probably outlook.

[Karolina1981]

Thanks for the answer. Yep, Poland. Totally different culture. :)

[joypulv]

1. They can be, but usually aren't. American teens might be worse than other countries, because they don't really want to give up the fun of hanging out, partying, and having all those 'toys' like iphones.

2. Under 18, no support either emotionally or financially, history of abuse, history of mental illness, drug use.

When I was 18 in 1965, more of my classmates and young women all over the US had babies in 'homes for unwed mothers' out of the public eye. Birth control was available starting around then (although the pill I and all of us took was later found to be much too strong). Abortion was legalized later, and those 'homes' mostly disappeared. Abortion went way up, and the ability to get subsidized housing went way down. I don't know how adoption rates fared at that time, but I don't think a lot of babies were available - except babies of color. Then we got drug addict mothers who didn't want their addicted babies, and they became burdens on the taxpayer for the next 18 years of their lives. Then the gov't cracked down on pregnant women to try to stop the trend, and the mother could be arrested or could have her baby taken from her with no chance to even see the child. Now we have some new pills available, 'abortion' pills, that can be used up to the 49th DAY. Unwanted live births and surgical abortions have gone way down. More efforts are made to find bio fathers with DNA testing, and to hold them liable for support. It is harder for poor young women to get an apartment with her child. Many used to get pregnant in order to escape a horrible home life- Drugs, rape, prostitution, neglect and violence. They can't escape that way as much now.

The Guttmacher Institute page is good to find trends in American pregnancies, births, and abortions.

Would I have kept a baby vs giving up for adoption? I think so, but I had my tubes tied.
A few lucky women/girls get to be in an 'open adoption' and have a schedule of visits with the child they gave up.

[Wondergirl]

Another point to bring up is that, in olden days, teens and young women lived in a three-generation household. If a teen/young woman got pregnant (and wasn't sent to Aunt Sophie's in another state) and kept the baby, there were family members under the same roof who would care for her and the child, plus extended family probably lived nearby and helped out.

Nowadays, both parents probably work and don't want to restart their family with the addition of their teen's baby (grandchildren are fine as long as the parents are married and grandchildren don't live with the grandparents). Extended family members are usually scattered all over the US or even in other countries.

I'm thinking, Karolina, that Poland is more like our "olden days" than the US today. Am I correct?

[Karolina1981]

JOYPULV, it seems you have a terrible opinion on American teens if you think they should give up their babies. :)



WONDERGIRL, it depends. Many adult children live with their old parents because they can't afford their own housing. In my house live four generations: my grandmother (will be 94 in May), dad, mom, me (36), my boyfriend and our daughter (4 months old).

I think very, very few unwed teens could keep their babies in the 60s or 70s in America. But now it's completely different and only 5 % of them place their children.

[Wondergirl]

WONDERGIRL, it depends. Many adult children live with their old parents because they can't afford their own housing. In my house live four generations: my grandmother (will be 94 in May), dad, mom, me (36), my boyfriend and our daughter (4 months old).

And that sounds like a perfect solution. Think of all the wonderful memories your child will have growing up and the family connections being made.

[Karolina1981]

Actually we are planning to move out in a couple of months but I think we will visit my parents at least daily, because I can't imagine my poor aging dad going out with the dogs three times a day. :) Yes, family is very important. I wish I had a closer relationship with my brother, though. We love each other but don't meet too often.

I think if I got pregnant in my teens I would have to completely rely on my parents (and I'm sure they wouldn't kick me out, but probably insist on adopting my baby ;)). I absolutely admire Polish, American or any other teens who raise their babies - provided they really do their best to give them a good life.

[Wondergirl]

Be very sure those women relatives teach you how to make those wonderful Polish dishes and WRITE them down. Thankfully, I was able to get my hands on my German grandmother's hand-printed personal cookbook and her sister's recipe box. My mom is 93 and, over the years, has mailed me her recipes (that I grew up with). I have my Polish friend's mother's recipe for kielbasa with sauerkraut plus several other old-country favorites.

May I ask your age?

[Karolina1981]

I am 36.

[Alty]

1. Can teenagers be good parents? Even very young teenagers? (I'm not talking about financial stability.)

I'm sure there are teens that are very good parents. Of all the teen moms I've known, only one was a good mom, and she and the father of the baby got married when she got pregnant at 17, and are still married today (they married in 1988). Her father gave her husband a job in the family business, they were able to buy a home of their own before they were even 20, they had another child in her very early 20's and now her kids are adults. They did a great job raising their kids, but they had a lot of help from their family. They're Italian, so that may be the difference.

The rest of the teens I know that got pregnant and kept the baby, not so good. No support, many times they were homeless or living with friends.

One specific case comes to mind. My cousin got a girl pregnant, they were both 18, so not a very young teen, but still young enough. They got married, but that didn't last even a year.

Every weekend from the time the baby was 2 months old, the baby was brought to me (I was 16) and I cared for her. She'd be dropped off with a sour bottle of milk (not formula, but 2% milk) no extra clothes, no diapers, dirty and stinky. My parents, who I lived with, would buy clothes, diapers and formula for her, every weekend. After a while we got smart, kept the clothes we bought at our place, as well as the diapers, because it was getting expensive buying all new things every weekend.

One weekend we found a joint in the diaper bag. Other weekends we'd find other things in the diaper bag that made us not want to give this baby back to her mother. The thing is, we could have reported her, but then what, the baby goes to foster care? We decided just to give her the best we could whenever we had her.

That baby is now 30 years old, and has a baby of her own. To this day she calls me mom, and she calls her actual mom by her first name. She often tells me that once she got old enough to realize how crappy her home life was, she often wished she could just stay with me.

Now, she wasn't mine, but I was 16 when I started caring for her, but without the support of my parents, even for just weekends, I don't think I could have done it. Her mother had no support at all, and she failed as a mother.

2. Under what circumstances would adoption be better than keeping a baby?

If the teen mother has no support, isn't living with her parents, doesn't have supportive parents, and can't afford to move out on her own away from her crappy parents, then I think adoption is the best course of action. Being a mom is hard enough when you're an adult without support. When you're a teen it's impossible, and the only one that suffers is the baby. Frankly, I think my cousin's daughter would have been better off adopted. Yes, I'd miss her, and I'm so happy she's in my life, but she went through so much stuff she didn't have to go through because she wasn't put up for adoption. She would have been better off with better parents.

[Karolina1981]

I absolutely agree that this particular teenager was an unfit mother. But I bet she would be the same even if she was 10 years older. It wasn't just poverty, it was terrible neglect and the baby should have been removed from this home.

You, on the other hand, would make a great mother at 16. Too bad you didn't adopt the baby. ;)

I read a few stories when a teenage mother did a good job raising children totally on her own. But it was only when she was totally devoted to her children and busted her [...] off, working hard to provide for them.

[joypulv]

WHAT?
"I must have a terrible opinion of American teens if I think they should give up their babies?"
I neither said anything about my opinion, NOR what I think they should do!!!

[Karolina1981]

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood you. You wrote "Under 18". I thought it means that underage mothers should place their children.

[joypulv]

You asked for circumstances under which a person might give up a baby. I gave a few that are common in the US today.
You remain strangely clueless about the different ways to discuss a topic.

Hypothetical
Theoretical
Generalization
Statistical trend
Anecdote from self or people we know


OF COURSE a teen is more likely to give up her baby than an older woman (even though the total number is very low). I said under 18 as a stat, and because that is how age group stats are recorded in the US, and that is because children here remain minors until 18.
And a girl is also more likely to be an unfit mother. "MORE LIKELY"!!!!! Statistically probable. Based on actual events - reports of neglect, abuse, and social problems as the child grows, medical problems, and so on.

PLEASE don't EXTRAPOLATE from that to conclude that that is MY opinion.

Alty gave a good personal example, and you immediately jumped in to say 'but she would have been the same if 10 years older.' So what? Yet another extrapolation. (And you have no idea if that would be true or not.) Mainly, it does nothing to detract from the fact that the story was a fairly typical example of how young parenting so often goes bad.

Having said all that:

• The proportion of teens placing their children for adoption has declined sharply over recent decades. (ChildTrends, 1995)
• When they become pregnant, very few teens choose to place their children for adoption. In a 1995 survey, 51% of teens that become pregnant give birth; 35% seek abortions; 14% miscarry. Less than 1% choose to place their children for adoption. (ChildTrends, 1995)

I could look for more recent stats but don't have time right now. I will hazard a guess that the trend continues downward, especially with the 70 day pill.

[Karolina1981]

But I asked about YOUR personal opinions when keeping a baby would be worse than adopting it out, not about the reasons others may have to go this route.

Yes, I do know American statistics. And I read nowadays that it's not American teenagers who are most likely to give up their babies. So age is probably not the most important factor, perhaps because they are offered support by their families.

Yes, I think this concrete teenage mother described by Alty wouldn't be better (or much better) ten years later. But of course I might be wrong.

[joypulv]

'But I asked about YOUR personal opinions...' Actually no, you didn't.
'And I read nowadays that it's not American teenagers who are most likely to give up their babies.' Where did you read that? And how do we parse that sentence? Non-American teens? Older American women? I quoted my sources. Please quote yours.
'Yes, I think this concrete teenage mother described by Alty wouldn't be better (or much better) ten years later.' AGAIN, you have no clue how much better, worse, or the same she'd be, and that is beside the point of teen mothers!
I don't get it. You are an articulate adult age 36, but you persist in mixing all the ways you possible can mix up the ways to approach a topic.

I'm out of here! You do seem to enjoy talking about anecdotes. Me, not so much, especially when people draw conclusions from them, instead of viewing them as EXAMPLES ONLY.

[Karolina1981]

I don't remember where I saw this information, I just came across it while browsing through the Net.

Yes, my questions are ALL about anecdotes and personal opinions. One can find statistics online, I don't need them. I am interested in other people's experience. I wasn't asking if teens are good parents because it would be as ridiculous as asking if Americans are good parents, if the poor are good parents, and so on. I asked if they CAN be.

[Alty]

I have to say, I made a great weekend mom for my cousins daughter, but if I had to do it full time, I'm not sure I would have done so well. On the weekends I didn't have school, my parents were off work. We all banded together to care for this precious little girl, it wasn't just me, even though my parents did say that if I wanted to do this the major responsibilities fell on me. I fed her, bathed her, she slept in my room. If she was sick, or got up in the middle of the night, I'm the one that took care of her. But my parents bought the diapers, the formula, the clothes, the car seat so we could go out on the weekends. My parents took care of all the financial stuff, because I had no way to do that, and they didn't have to pay for all the things a baby needs, we were just weekend parents. We had 2 days out of 7.

Full time would have meant me dropping out of school, or one of my parents quitting their job to care for the baby so I could go to school. It wouldn't have been as easy as just caring for her on the weekend.

Yes, I devoted every minute of my weekends to her. I had offers to go party, to have fun, to see my friends, to do all the things normal 16 year girls do, and I chose to stay home with her because that's where I wanted to be. In the meantime, her mom dropped her off with me so she could go party.

I have to say, every Friday I was excited because I knew she was coming over. Every Sunday I was depressed because I knew I wouldn't see her again for 5 days and I was scared she wouldn't be properly cared for until I saw her again. I didn't give birth to her, but I loved her more than both her biological parents did.

Okay, just realized something. You said I should have adopted her. I would have kept her and raised her without a second thought if I could. But your whole premise is that adoption isn't great, that if possible, baby should stay with her bio parents.

Not trying to start a fight, but let's talk about this, because in the situation I was in, I was 2 years younger than the bio parents, and at 16 I was in high school, living with my parents. Now, yes, I was a better "mom" than the bio mom and dad combined. I was a teen, but this wasn't my baby. My parents paid for the diapers, clothes and food she needed when she was with us I had not a penny to my name, I went to school, and that was my job. If I had a full time baby I'd have to give up school, get a job, pay for everything, unless I had a family willing to help, like my family helped for a baby that wasn't even mine! Most teens don't have that. Kayla's mom (Kayla is the name of the baby, and man it feels weird calling her a baby now, she's 30 now, married, and her little boy will be 1 in May) didn't have that, and that's why she relied on us. And I found out that during the week, other people took care of Kayla. She never asked me because she knew I couldn't do it during the week, I had school. She knew my parents would never let me skip school to take care of another persons child.

My parents actually talked about adopting Kayla. It's a long story, but the father, my cousin, his parents (my dad's brother and his wife) found out we were talking to Kayla's mom about adoption, and it all went to hell. It ended up with threats, and so much more, and me not seeing Kayla from the age of 3 until 13. Her mom actually moved away because of it all. It's a longer story than I want to tell.

I think I just showed that it all depends on the person. I just re-read what I wrote. There's so much I didn't write, and frankly, it's painful to write it. That little girl went through so much because she stayed with her mom. Abuse, molestation, rape, all because she had a crappy mom. All because her mom moved and I couldn't see her.

Ya, part of me thinks she should have been given up for adoption. The part that wouldn't miss the person I've loved and known for 30 years, thinks that would have been the best thing her parents could do. Thing is, I can't be the person that wouldn't miss her,because I would. I know her, I helped raise her from 2 months to 3 years, and 13 to now, and I'd miss her. But what would have been better for her? Certainly not the childhood she had with her mom and absent father. She would have been far better off being adopted by good people than to stay in the situation she had.

Thing is, I do know her, I took care of her, I remember her first smile, when she started to crawl, when she started to walk, being up all night because she was little and needed to eat during the night, and needed a diaper change, and just needed someone to hold her and love her. If they had given her up before I loved her, I'd say that was a good choice. But once they brought her to me and I cared, you, I can't imagine my life without her. Now she's a mom and not being a part of that, I can't imagine it.

But, if they had given her up as soon as she was born, you, that would have been the best thing for her. No parents could have been as bad as the ones she was stuck with.

Sorry if I'm all over the place with my post. I'm a mom of two great kids, teens now, and I love them beyond reason, and they're great kids. Kayla, she's very much a part of my life, rarely talks to her mom or her dad. She now has a little boy, he'll be one soon. Kayla is an awesome mom, so very careful to do everything right. Sometimes too careful, there's no wiggle space to make mistakes. I often wonder if she's that careful because she's so afraid to end up like her parents. I often step in and try to be the voice of reason, try to make sure she knows that her parents, they messed up. She won't mess up because she cares, and she loves that little boy above all else, puts him above all else. That's what makes a good mom. Sadly most people don't have that. Love isn't enough. To be a good parent you have to be willing to sacrifice everything for that child, and I don't know many teens that are capable of that kind of sacrifice.

[Alty]

I have to add, Kayla's mom had another child in her mid 20's. By that time she was married, had a job, had quit partying as much, and even though she still wasn't a great mom, she was a far better mom to the second child than she was to Kayla.