[Wondergirl]

And women, in your view, are incapable of saying it.

Men have been blaming women since the Garden of Eden: "And the man said, 'The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.'" I.e., He cudda just told her "No, thanks."

[jlisenbe]

Perhaps we can settle this with two simple statements. Most men understand what "no" means and should honor that. Most women are quite capable of saying "no" and making it stand. So perhaps we should both simply agree to encourage women to say "no" and men to understand that "no" means "no". We can then take a stand that marriage is the only appropriate and safe place for sex.

Deal?

[Wondergirl]

Perhaps we can settle this with two simple statements. Most men understand what "no" means and should honor that. Most women are quite capable of saying "no" and making it stand. So perhaps we should both simply agree to encourage women to say "no" and men to understand that "no" means "no". We can then take a stand that marriage is the only appropriate and safe place for sex.

Deal?

That's been tried. Abstinence education doesn't work. Now what?

[jlisenbe]

Forget it.

[waltero]

Men have been blaming women since the Garden of Eden: "And the man said, 'The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.'" I.e., He cudda just told her "No, thanks."

She handed it to him after she was eating it all seductive like. Of course she was (being a woman and all) deceitful in handing him a piece of fruit. She Grabbed a piece off the tree of good and Evil and stood in front of another tree when she handed it off to him. Adam had no Idea she handed him a piece of fruit from the forbidden tree! Yah, Yah that's it. Eve was a sly one.

[waltero]

We can then take a stand that marriage is the only appropriate and safe place for sex.

That's been tried, doesn't work. Now what?

Seemed to have worked longer than anything else. The game has changed and the Players don't believe in rules.

[talaniman]

Seemed to have worked longer than anything else. The game has changed and the Players don't believe in rules.

Half the marriages in America end in divorce, and multiple divorces is not unusual, as in the dufus and his 3 wives. Is that the example that works so well and he cheated on them all? Marriage has not proven to be a silver bullet against flawed human nature nor abortions which is as old as marriage itself.

[jlisenbe]

Marriage has not proven to be a silver bullet against flawed human nature nor abortions which is as old as marriage itself.

It worked well for centuries. Perfectly? No. Nothing does that, but it is still true that when marriage was held in high esteem, divorce was much less common as were abortions. The destruction of the family unit has been a disaster.

[talaniman]

Hmm maybe it worked well when women were more submissive, barefoot and pregnant. They seem to have gotten more independent over the years and unwilling to stay in bad marriages. In case you haven't noticed things have changed and not just the institution of marriage. People have changed and not just the females. Abortions are declining maybe not fast enough but steadily. Girls just are not wanting to be their mothers because kids do see the wrong examples in dysfunctional marriages and it's more profound. Humans are complicated with complicated lives and issues and it's easy to trade love and commitment for a short lived feel good. Even easier with no baggage to look for the next adventure. Hey it was acceptable in the old days for men to cat around and women sit home to forgive them, and more and more women are saying screw that I can have a life outside the home too, and find love in all the wrong places.

You thumpers didn't date much before you were married did you? There was and always will be more than one kind of woman, just as there is and always will be more than one kind of man. We agree though that it's the women who get pregnant and NOT the men and it's the women who decides what to do about her pregnancy, not the men. It's always been that way. Thought you knew.

[Wondergirl]

You thumpers didn't date much before you were married did you?

That's what I have gathered from this thread.

We agree though that it's the women who get pregnant and NOT the men, and it's the woman who decides what to do about her pregnancy, not the man. It's always been that way. Thought you knew.

That sums it up!

[jlisenbe]

You thumpers didn't date much before you were married did you? There was and always will be more than one kind of woman, just as there is and always will be more than one kind of man. We agree though that it's the women who get pregnant and NOT the men and it's the women who decides what to do about her pregnancy, not the men. It's always been that way. Thought you knew.

Yeah. Just like there has always been racists, murderers, bank robbers, and various others who engaged in bad behavior. The point is that we should join together in saying it is wrong. And again, you are fine with killing babies in the womb. I don't even begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

[Wondergirl]

And again, you are fine with killing babies in the womb. I don't even begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

And you are fine with killing babies once they've been born. I don't begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

[paraclete]

This debate has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous

[talaniman]

Yeah. Just like there has always been racists, murderers, bank robbers, and various others who engaged in bad behavior. The point is that we should join together in saying it is wrong. And again, you are fine with killing babies in the womb. I don't even begin to understand that, but it's on you and not on me, thank the Lord.

Good luck stopping people from making there own mistakes and better luck changing a bad human into a good one. The day after pill is killing a child in the womb? You need more than luck stopping humans good or bad from doing what we've been doing since we started doing it. Now find something we agree on, and can work toward together, because I just ain't about telling another human what to do.

Spare me the selective morality please as you cannot even denounce the bad behavior, words, and antics of a lying cheating dufus who scarfed trillions for him and his crew and gave you a few crumbs and now wants to cut your hard earned benefits that you can't pass to your kids. You hate debts but allow debts, so please don't talk about being the champion of babies. I suppose you need to lord it over someone to feel like you stand for something though, and that's more sad than infuriating.

You can't even give that female with four kids credit for not having an abortion, you still find a sin to condemn her for. So build your freaking wall to hide behind from needy scared families running from the same thing your peeps ran from and ignore the loonies shooting up schools, churches, movie houses, and malls, while you tell me about killing babies in the womb knowing you ain't taking care of any of them.

You got life and BS all mixed up my friend and for the life of me I do not understand it.

[jlisenbe]

You got life and BS all mixed up my friend and for the life of me I do not understand it.

Unborn children in the womb. That's the lives I'm talking about. All the other stuff you talk about is just an attempt at distraction. When we talk about destroying lives in abortion, you go on a rant about walls and shootings and debt and other assorted problems, and then suggest (wrongly) I am OK with all of that. You are avoiding the issue of your support of allowing the killing of children in the womb.

[talaniman]

I can respect your position, but obviously you dodge the direct question of the morning after pill and the topic is the border wall so I am not sure who is distracted here.

The day after pill is killing a child in the womb?

I have been clear that abortion is not my choice, but it is the choice of many and always has been. The real issue you dodge often is what to do after the deed is done?

[jlisenbe]

The day after pill is killing a child in the womb?

It certainly ends the life of a human being. There is no other way to see it.

I have been clear that abortion is not my choice, but it is the choice of many and always has been.

That just won't work. It's on the same level as saying, "Murder is not my choice, but it is the choice of many." That does nothing to change the issue of the rightness or wrongness of the choice.

The real issue you dodge often is what to do after the deed is done?

I don't think I've dodged the question at all. People get to make their own decisions. We are told on this board that we cannot force our religious ideas on others. OK, but if someone wants to make her own decisions absent any input from others, then she must be prepared to take the responsibility for her own actions. Now if I choose to (and I do), then I can help her and her child, but I will not put on my "holier than thou" robe by forcing another person to help that woman. I do not agree with your idea that you can force others to do what you don't seem willing to do yourself, which is to give resources to help another person.

Might add that it is a good thing we have Christians in this world who operate crisis pregnancy centers that help young mothers rather than doing abortions like PP.

The bottom line is this. I will not lend my support, as you do, to politicians whose idea of a solution is to kill the bothersome little human being before he/she can be born, thus sparing us all the inconvenience of having to take care of the child. That way we can go back to having sex with whoever for as long as we like. I find that idea to be nauseating and a perfect description of the age in which we live where so-called "sexual freedom" is king and human lives mean very little.

[talaniman]

So it's illegal for government to establish a safety net for those in need? You were outvoted on that LAWFULLY ,but whine if you must whether it's right or wrong. The same goes with abortion rights, and preventing unwanted pregnancy. or even gay rights. I can't stop you from expressing yourself and you can't stop me from disagreeing, nor should we right? So far you've been outvoted. Been there too.

[jlisenbe]

Wasn't outvoted on abortion or gay marriage either one. Our liberal Supreme Court awarded us with those two.

[talaniman]

Maybe you should look up the history of both before it was affirmed by SCOTUS.