[gromitt82]

This, of course, did not refer to the denomination that we have today which was founded in the 4th century, but rather to the universal church.


The Greek word katholikos (καθολικός), which St. Ignatius used, means "universal," and he made use of it, obviously, to describe the church he belonged to, precisely, as Universal, thus eluding some of the theological debates already taking place in his time that will be later discussed at the 1st Nicaean Council. This why he wrote to the Smyrnaeans:

“Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid”.

As one of the primitive Fathers of the Church he should have logically considered Christianity as the only Church to be taken into consideration; hence “Universal”.

On the other hand, I do not think we can affirm that Catholicism was founded by Emperor Constantine when he convoked the 1st Nicaean Council, in 325 AD.

The intent of this Council was, basically, to define a unity of beliefs for the whole of Christendom by resolving some disagreements arising between St. Alexander and the presbyter Arius.

However, the Council was, in fact, the 1st Ecumenical Council of the Christian Church.

Actually, its most significant consequence was the Nicene Creed which, as you know, is an ecumenical Christian statement of faith accepted in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Communion, and almost all branches of Protestantism, including the Reformed churches, the Presbyterian Church, and the Methodist Church.

The Nicene Creed declares belief in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Here, the word Catholic is also taken in its face value of Universal, for those who accept this creed therefore generally believe they should be united in a single Church or group of Churches in communion with each other.

The problem, if any, lies on the fact that the ancient Churches consider that they represent the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church: furthermore, this is why the Vatican has somehow arrogated that title while considering the Eastern Orthodox Church to be in schism. However, the Eastern Orthodox Church also claims that title and holds that the Catholic Church is schismatic and probably heretical; to add to the confusion some Protestant Churches believe that they also represent the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and consider the Orthodox and Catholic Churches to be in error.

This must be why, to avoid confusions, both Protestants and Oriental Orthodox Churches have named the Catholic Church depending from the Vatican, the Roman Catholic Church, which could also be designated as Roman Universal Church.


Actually restorationism is movement separate from mainstream protestantism though parts may be considered protestant, but others parts of which are considered heretical by protestant and other non-Catholic churches.

Nevertheless, I think - although I may be wrong - that restorationisme followers also believe in Hesus Christ, don't they?

Anabaptists are another completely separate movement and are not part of the restorationist movement.

You must be right. But do they believe in Jesus Christ or not?

[Tj3]

You must be right. But do they believe in Jesus Christ or not?

Whether you believe that the Roman Catholic denomination was founded in 325AD or not, history records this to be the case and it is affirmed even by one of your denomination's best known Cardinals.

As far as whether sects or religions believe in Jesus Christ, that is not the only question to be asked. Paul brings up some other critical points:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
NKJV

And

Gal 1:6-8
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
NKJV

Just saying that you believe in Jesus Christ is not, according to scripture, enough.

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
NKJV

[addaddadd]

I'm interested in Christianity and exploring my options. Catholicism didn't work for me for several reasons, but I have an honest understanding of the bible. I want to find something that is easy to incorporate into my life, but exciting enough to KEEP ME INTERESTED! :rolleyes:

I used to be a catholic until I found out their teaching is not base in the bible.If you read the whole bible there is no purgatory,and limbo which they believe and teach. They teaching with out in the bible. There's a warning in the Bible [B]"8, But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9, As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye recieved, let him be accursed." Galatians1:8-9.[/B] If ask why are there many religion and they said they are christian, Jesus Christ gave a sign "For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall decieve the very elect. Matthew 24:24
And if you ask how do I know the right group of religion the sign is "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doktrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" John7:17. The base is the doctrine. "angdatingdaan"

[gromitt82]

Whether you believe that the Roman Catholic denomination was founded in 325AD or not, history records this to be the case and it is affirmed even by one of your denomination's best known Cardinals.

As far as whether sects or religions believe in Jesus Christ, that is not the only question to be asked. Paul brings up some other critical points:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
NKJV

and

Gal 1:6-8
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
NKJV

Just saying that you believe in Jesus Christ is not, according to scripture, enough.

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
NKJV

I’m not going to debate on when the Catholicism was founded. It is a fact that historians do NOT always coincide in their expositions or explanations… Those Cardinals you mention may be as wrong as the historians who said the contrary. Besides, this is totally unimportant! Catholicism is just here to probably last as long as Mankind.

2 Cor 11:1-4
Here, St. Paul does not say that believing in Jesus Christ should not be enough. He simply alerts the Corinthians to be careful lest someone pretending to be Jesus Christ appears before them, and they put up with it!

Gal 1:6-8
Here, Paul shows his amazement and dismay by the fact that the Galatian church foolishly did not hold fast to the Gospel as it had been preached to them. "They were removed, not from the apostle who was God's instrument in calling them into the fellowship of the Gospel, but from God Himself, by whose direction the Gospel was preached to them. Therefore, they had been guilty of a great abuse of His kindness and mercy towards them, because they had fallen away from the Grace into which they had been called." It took but a little time for the Galatians to fall into the false theology of the Judaizers that taught justification by works of the law. This doctrine of the Judaizers is called "a different gospel" because it presented a different way to salvation from that which was revealed in the Gospel, namely, by personal effort rather by faith in Christ alone. They had fallen for the false teaching of the Judaizers, which promised to produce righteousness and God’s blessings if they would submit to circumcision and the keeping of the Mosaic Law.
I, therefore, cannot see from these two examples from St. Paul, how you get to the deduction that believing in Jesus Christ (which is tantamount to believing in The Word) should not be enough.

As for Matt. 7:21-23, I think what he implies is quite clear.
Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” Believing in Jesus Christ exactly entails following His Message by the letter or as close as humanly possible. I DO NOT mean believing that Jesus Christ did exist as we believe Jules Caesar existed! What I obviously meant was to believe He is GOD and to believe in his Word.

[Tj3]

I'm not going to debate on when the Catholicism was founded. It is a fact that historians do NOT always coincide in their expositions or explanations… Those Cardinals you mention may be as wrong as the historians who said the contrary. Besides, this is totally unimportant! Catholicism is just here to probably last as long as Mankind.

You are, of course, welcome to believe as you wish.

I disagree that any denomination is going to last as long as mankind.

2 Cor 11:1-4
Here, St. Paul does not say that believing in Jesus Christ should not be enough. He simply alerts the Corinthians to be careful lest someone pretending to be Jesus Christ appears before them, and they put up with it!

Exactly. So they would be following a different Jesus. Therefore just claiming to believe in someone named Jesus is not enough. It has to be the right Jesus.

Gal 1:6-8
Here, Paul shows his amazement and dismay by the fact that the Galatian church foolishly did not hold fast to the Gospel as it had been preached to them. "They were removed, not from the apostle who was God's instrument in calling them into the fellowship of the Gospel, but from God Himself, by whose direction the Gospel was preached to them. Therefore, they had been guilty of a great abuse of His kindness and mercy towards them, because they had fallen away from the Grace into which they had been called." It took but a little time for the Galatians to fall into the false theology of the Judaizers that taught justification by works of the law. This doctrine of the Judaizers is called "a different gospel" because it presented a different way to salvation from that which was revealed in the Gospel, namely, by personal effort rather by faith in Christ alone. They had fallen for the false teaching of the Judaizers, which promised to produce righteousness and God's blessings if they would submit to circumcision and the keeping of the Mosaic Law.

So not just any gospel is good enough. You need the right gospel.

As for Matt. 7:21-23 I think what he implies is quite clear.
Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” Believing in Jesus Christ exactly entails following His Message by the letter or as close as humanly possible. I DO NOT mean believing that Jesus Christ did exist as we believe Jules Caesar existed! What I obviously meant was to believe He is GOD and to believe in his Word.

Not everyone who claims to profess Jesus, or who follows a gospel which they claim to be Christian (though it is different) will be saved. It must be the right Jesus and the right gospel.

[gromitt82]

You are, of course, welcome to believe as you wish.

I disagree that any denomination is going to last as long as mankind.

Your privilege, of course!

Exactly. So they would be following a different Jesus. Therefore just claiming to believe in someone named Jesus is not enough. It has to be the right Jesus.

"Claiming to believe in someone named Jesus is not enough" Of course, it is not. I never said to believe in someone named Jesus. I said BELIEVING IN JESUS. And, as far as I'm concerned, THERE IS ONLY ONE JESUS CHRIST. The one that died in the Cross to redeem us. No possible confussion there.

So not just any gospel is good enough. You need the right gospel.

Again, as far as I am concerned I have, since long, accepted as the right Gospels St. Luke, St. Mark, St. Matthew and St. John's. I know there are others, but to me, they are not the RIGHT ones.

Not everyone who claims to profess Jesus, or who follows a gospel which they claim to be Christian (though it is different) will be saved. It must be the right Jesus and the right gospel.

I agree with you. This is why I have made sure to have chosen the right Jesus Christ and the right Gospels. However, I do not agree that ONLY those who believe in the right Jesus and in the right Gospel will be saved. That would, right now, condemn 3/4 of Mankind.
And one of the points emphasized by the RIGHT GOSPELS is that GOD's Mercy is infinite.
Let's remember that, please!

[Tj3]

I agree with you. This is why I have made sure to have chosen the right Jesus Christ and the right Gospels. However, I do not agree that ONLY those who believe in the right Jesus and in the right Gospel will be saved. That would, right now, condemn 3/4 of Mankind.
And one of the points emphasized by the RIGHT GOSPELS is that GOD's Mercy is infinite.
Let's remember that, please!

It sounds like you believe in universalism. But that is not what scripture teaches. Let's look again at these verses:

Gal 1:6-8
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
NKJV

Why is this the only time where there is a repetitive cursing in the Bible? It is because those who teach a false gospel are condemning those who receiving that gospel to an eternity in the lake of fire. If you were right and it did not matter, then such a condemnation of those teaching a false gospel would be meaningless.

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
NKJV

In Matthew 7, we see that scripture is quite specific that they did these things in His name, in Jesus' name. Further, there is no suggestion whatsoever that they did not do these things, but despite performing signs and wonders and doing so in Jesus name, they were on their way to hell.

John 14:5-6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

Did Jesus not mean what He said? By "no one", are you suggesting that He meant anyone? And why is this important? Because scripture is clear that the only way that we are saved is by means of the blood sacrificed by the perfect lamb of God. There is therefore no other person through whom we can be saved.

What scripture says about His mercy is that it is everlasting:

Ps 100:5
5 For the LORD is good;
His mercy is everlasting,
And His truth endures to all generations.
NKJV

Who is His mercy on?

Luke 1:50
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
NKJV

Scripture is clear that He is unwilling that any should perish, but whether they choose to accept that sacrifice is entirely up to them. If they choose not to, remember the other point made through scripture regarding God's judgment on those who reject Him. Remember also that God did not condemn, but man condemns Himself by not believing in Jesus:

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NKJV

Would this condemn most of mankind? Yes, it would, but then again scripture says that it is a remnant who follow God, and Jesus speaks about how few believers there will be when He returns:

Luke 18:8
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"
NKJV

Therefore your 25% figure is likely way too high.

[Fr_Chuck]

Closed, this is not a discussion area, and the original poster did not want to know the history of the Church. The majority of this thread has not reference to the original question