[excon]

Hello:

I've been waiting for this moment...

We're OUT of Iraq. From the get go, I've said that George W. Bush LOST this war. I said it time and time again. I haven't changed my mind.

It looks, however, like the right wing agrees with me. Iran is the winner, but it's Obama's fault.. Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

And, you guys want to run this country.

excon

[Dr1757]

Hello Ex good to see your up and about.

I agree that Iraq was a waste of lives and money. It was fought for the wrong reason(s), Saddam needed to go away and we needed the oil. Iraq will never be a democracy but I think Iran will muddy the water even more now that we are pulling out.

Let's not forget that Vietnam was another war we should not have been involved in but LBJ (democrat) found a way in and it took a Republican to get us out.

Have a great day.

[ballengerb1]

I saw a T shirt that said Vietnam, second place. Made my blood run cold but that's what happened. Korea, Vietnam and Iraq we were the British red coats standing in a line in an open field compared to our enemy. Somehow we decided to become the world police force and we aren't very smart about it. The French showed us what would happen in Vietnam but we went in anyway. The Russian showed us what Afghanistan was like, we went in anyway. We need smarter leaders, this coming from a guy who lives in a state where our last two governors are making our license plates.

[tomder55]

Obama did snatch defeat from victory by not negotiating a renewal of the status of forces agreement . If we had bugged out of Korea the same way then the NORKS would rule the whole place. No difference.

[tomder55]

For the record.. Remaining in Iraq are 16,000 American personel ;many of them re-designated "Diplomats" and Diplomatic Security Personnel" to be at the service of the State Dept. They are housed...or should I say ,"garrisoned " in the largest and most heavily fortified Embassy in the world. Such is the Obama deception.

[tomder55]

I hope I am hearing this wrong .
Ali Musa Daqduq to be released when we leave Iraq .

He is a Hezbollah operative trained by the Iran Qud's .2007 he led a terror team into Iraq that killed 5 US troops in Karbalah . He was later captured and has been inUS custody in Iraq .

But there are no provisions to either transfer him to the US or to GITMO to face justice. His compatriots were already transferred to Iraqi control and they shamefully( and swiftly I might add) exchanged them for captured British soldiers .

This was not the only example . There have been literally hundreds of Iranian operatives involved in terror activity in Iraq who have been released and repatriated to Iran .


Daqduq ,besides the specific case of the deaths of the US troops in Karbala trained many of the Iranian and Iraqi terrorists operatives working in Iraq the last decade . He has much more blood on his hands .

Yet it appears that when we exit he too will be handed over to the Iraqis .Must be part of that honourable peace President Obama promised us .

I will be constructing a letter to Att Gen Holder and Def Sec Panetta in support of a transfer to GITMO and a tribunal... not that it will do any good .

I expect Daqduq will get his welcome home parade in the streets of Tehran long before the parade I envision for returning troops down the Canyon of Heroes is ever realized.

[excon]

Yet it appears that when we exit he too will be handed over to the Iraqis .Must be part of that honourable peace President Obama promised us .

Hello tom:

Well, it certainly was part of the negotiations over our withdrawal.

Besides, having gone in WRONGLY, and having killed some 100,000 Iraqi's while we were there, I'm just not sure there IS an honorable peace. There's only leaving.

But, I agree with you. Some of the stuff that goes on is very ugly.. We handed over ONE terrorist.. Israel, recently, handed over 100's. You do, what you have to do.

excon

[excon]

Obama did snatch defeat from victory by not negotiating a renewal of the status of forces agreement . If we had bugged out of Korea the same way then the NORKS would rule the whole place. No difference.

Hello again, tom:

Unfair comparison... WE were INVITED into South Korea to DEFEND them. The NORKS were the INVADERS. WE were the defenders. . WE were the good guys. We REMAIN the good guys. South Korea wants us THERE.

However, in Iraq, WE were the invaders. We invaded for FALSE reasons. THEY were defending themselves against the invaders. THEY'RE the good guys. They want us OUT. We have no business staying there.

Yes, Iran is the winner. That's what happens when you LOSE wars. You get SCREWED. And George W. Bush LOST this one.

excon

[tomder55]

Besides, having gone in WRONGLY, and having killed some 100,000 Iraqi's while we were there

Wrong... we did not kill 100,000 Iraqis.. they mostly killed themselves.. with the assist of AQ and Iran.

But, I agree with you. Some of the stuff that goes on is very ugly.. We handed over ONE terrorist.. Israel, recently, handed over 100's. You do, what you have to do.

That is a move by the Israelis that I disagree with . But it's their business.
We are only turning over Daqduq because of our weak-kneed leadership who won't do the right thing about handling unlawful enemy combattants ,and would rather free them than conduct tribunals .

Unfair comparison

No it is not . The status of forces agreement was in place .It was Obama's refusual to negotiate an extension that was wrong.
You are kidding ,aren't you ? You think they want Iran dominance ? Do you think Maliki would've travelled to Washington this month if he wasn't seeking some kind of deal ?

Maliki is telling anyone who will listen that he wants America there . He is attempting to balance Iraq's long-term interest;but the President's policies are pushing him into the arms of Iran . Yeah I said it!

Yes ,only Obama's policies makes Iran the winners .
Instead of building a new alliance with a free and independent Iraq ;the President is content to allow all the gains of the last decade to be squandered .

There were in fact very minor disagreements in the negotiations ,that were easily surmountable, if the President had any intention of pursuing a new alliance . He was not inclined to because of the silly campaign promises he boxed himself into.

Meanwhile he shamelessly touts the accomplishments there as if they are his own . There is no shortage of rhetoric about the great opportunities and freedoms that the "Bush war " gave to these Iraqis. He's right about that of course ;but he had ZERO to do with it ,and his decisions now threaten a reversal of all good that came from the conflict.

[paraclete]

Why all the analysis and debate, the US is leaving Iraq, it is largely peaceful, this is a good thing. And you you seem to think you had some sort of propriety rights by reason of conquest. A somewhat outmoded idea

[Athos]

Why all the analysis and debate, the US is leaving Iraq, it is largely peaceful, this is a good thing. And you you seem to think you had some sort of propriety rights by reason of conquest. A somewhat outmoded idea

There is no question that the US invaded Iraq for the flimsiest of reasons - no, read false, not flimsy.

Bush disgraced a great country, was directly responsible for massive killing on all sides, and will go down in history with the other mass murderers of the 20th century.

[smoothy]

Just wait... Like Egypt, and Libya... Iraq will soon be run by the Islamic lunatics that call themselves the Muslim Brotherhood... but Obama would like that since he is aligned with them.


And Athos... you like some many of the lefties that like Obamas wars... but hate anything Bushg had a hand in... you are ignoring a key thing...


Saddam violated the cease fire agreement... "W" didn't start a new war... the "First" Gulf war never officially ended... and since selective amnesia is also part of Bush Deraingement syndrome...

Cease fires don't expire... Korea is still under a cease fire agreement... thats been HOW many years.

If anyone disgraced themselves it's the Iraqi people. A large percentage of them anyway. We would have been out of there years ago if they had any civilization in their genes.

[tomder55]

Maliki wanted the US to stay .President Jalal Talabani wanted the US to stay and said that only the Mookie al-Sadr faction backed by Iran wanted the US out.
So yeah ;Obama's premature withdrawal guarantees that the thugs in Tehran are the biggest short term winners. In the long term ,smoothy is probably correct... the pan-Islamist jihadists will probably control the most strategically located nation on the Arabian peninsula.

The President seems hell bent on trying to prove his original hypothesis that Iraq was the "dumb war", by guaranteeing a negative outcome.
Well Mr President ;you can proudly display your own"Mission Accomplished " banner during your 2012 convention.Make sure you invite the troops at nearby Fort Bragg to attend .

[paraclete]

Iraq was a dumb war instituted by the dumbest President ever to take office in america, so don't try to justify it. Wrap up your paranoia and do what George H W Bush did and leave the muslims to work it out for themselves.

[tomder55]

With all due respect to former President GHWBush and to your revisionist history.
1. his idea of letting the muslims ... work it out for themselves was to sit by with our air assets on the ground ,and the largest coalition army since WWII nearby while Saddam's helicopters gunned down 10's of thousands of Iraqi Shia and Kurds.
2. As a result of his decision ,the US and the Brits spent a decade enforcing no fly zones to protect these Iraqis from further mass murder .

Now ,had the world truly backed the sanctions imposed on the Saddam led regime with the same gusto that they did when they decided the South African regime had to go ;then maybe Operation Iraqi Freedom would not have been necessary. But unfortunately ;the very countries that opposed the war were the very ones that made it necessary by violating UN sanctions on Iraq.

[excon]

So yeah ;Obama's premature withdrawal guarantees that the thugs in Tehran are the biggest short term winners. . the pan-Islamist jihadists will probably control the most strategically located nation on the Arabian peninsula.

Hello again, tom:

You HIT the nail on the head... Since we DIDN'T win, your scenario is entirely possible... But, it's NOT because we're leaving... It's because we DIDN'T win. The same thing will happen if we leave in 5 years - 10 years - 20 years... That's because we DIDN'T WIN!

You, like your Republican cohorts, are arguing for PERMANENT war, and we ain't going for it.

But, that's cool.. You got another war looming on the horizon just like the one we lost... DUDES!!

excon

[tomder55]

I don't know what you mean by win. We must've lost WWII in Europe and Japan because our troops are still there .

[paraclete]

Tom Tom the US didn't win or loose Iraq, you conquered Saddam but then the insurgency held you mired in a war for years, a strategy of Iran and Al Qaeda. Ultimately the Iraqi were strong enough to police their own country and you were invited to leave or at least convert your military presence to a civilian one.

Similarly you have neither won or lost Afghanistan but I predict the same outcome.

War is no longer as clear cut as it used to be

[tomder55]

True enough .But I wasn't the one who spoke in terms of win or loss.
Goals :
1.Saddam removed... check
2. Accounting of his WMD... check
3. No longer a threat to his neighbors... check
4. No longer a threat to his own people who he mass murdered for years... check
5. A free Iraq with a representative government... check
6 . A secure Iraq... incomplete ;and that is why were are still needed there . It will take Iraq a decade to be in a position to defend it's own air space . It will take them some time to secure themselves from dominance from their neighbor to the East.

Again ;the Iraqis were not pushing us out . Except for the faction already mentioned ,they wanted us to stay... and US business investment is very much in demand.
No... it was a political calculation from the President to undermine the talks for continuing the Status of Forces Agreement that ended US Combat in Iraq in 2008 in victory (with the caveat that you make about the definitions of won /loss ;victory/defeat) .

Edit the specific date of Victory in Iraq Day is November 17,2008 . Mark it on your calendar.

[excon]

1.Saddam removed ...check
2. Accounting of his WMD ...check
3. No longer a threat to his neighbors...check
4. No longer a threat to his own people who he mass murdered for years .... check
5. A free Iraq with a representative government ... check
6 . A secure Iraq ... incomplete ;and that is why were are still needed there . It will take Iraq a decade to be in a position to defend it's own air space . It will take them some time to secure themselves from dominance from their neighbor to the East.

Hello again, tom:

Let's translate #6 into ENGLISH.. It means we DIDN'T WIN. You mention our troops in Japan. We WON in Japan. Our troops are NOT preventing a re-engagement of that war. Same thing in Germany.

Troops left in Iraq, however, WOULD be preventing a war - a war that is going to happen WHENEVER we leave, because we DIDN'T WIN. Plus, our residual force would be TARGETS. We'd CONTINUE to suffer casualties... That ain't a win...

It was LOST before it ever began, because it was STARTED for the wrong reasons. It will NEVER be won. George Bush broke it soooo badly that only a PERMANENT state of war will fix it, IF you want to call that a fix...

Now, you want to do Iran the same way... DUDES!!

excon