[Yellowroses]

I could use some advise regarding a son and daughter-in-law who feel extremely entitled. I have a 36 yr. old son, who is married and has three kids, two cats and a dog. Three years ago, he lost his job in another state and decided to move back to our home state. He didn't have a job, so he stayed at my summer place for a minimal fee ($250 a month) until he got back on his feet. I didn't charge him for the first month, but felt it better to charge him something or he wouldn't take care of the place (didn't help). Once he found a job, that was close to my home, he started looking for an apartment. Since I had a two family, and my 2nd floor (7 rooms) was vacant (first mistake), I offered it to them with no money down (no first month, last month or security). Since he had been out of work for some time, I charged him $1,200 with heat and electricity included. All he had to pay was for a phone. I had lived in that apartment before I moved downstairs, and left my washer, refrigerator, portable dishwasher, washer and all my air-conditioners for them to use (they were not included in the lease). I did have him sign a One Year Lease - it stated no trash on the porches or in halls, two pets only (they had two cats). It also stated that I could give him a 30 day notice if things went wrong, or he could do the same. We also agreed to sit down and put things on the "table" when there were any issues. I wanted to be sure things worked out. Well, after a year, he lost his job again, and then had a third child who was born with a medical condition. It was a difficult time for them. I lowered the rent to $1,000 as I had a mortgage and couldn't swing not charging him, but paid for a lot of their food, clothing for the kids and anything else they needed. After a year he started working again, but I left the rent as is to help him get back on his feet. He also got a dog, without asking, and the dog still is not well housebroken (rather - they are not consistent with letting him out) Last year, he came down and told me they were in financial straights, and that they owed a very large cable/phone bill. I offered him to connect to my cable/phone since we were all family, and told him it would only be until he could get things paid off (6 months). Well, needless to say, he never took the cable/phone back, and they are very lax about shutting lights or TVs off when not being used. They had gone away and asked me to watch their pets, and when I went upstairs found they had left two TVs, three air-conditioners, bedroom, kitchen and bathroom lights and a radio on. When I told him, he said that wasn't true. This has happened numerous times and I'm fed up. I decided to have the electricity separated for the two apartments and told him that I was going to do this so he would have his own meter and I wouldn't nag about the lights being left on. He said he understood. Now, that I'm doing it, he is demanding that I go down in the rent. Due to the cost of maintaining the apartment (damages they have caused) and the cost of oil, I cannot go down. I explained that this would be instead of a rent increase. He is now refusing to pay anything additional for the apartment. When I said he needs to take the phone/cable back, he refused and said it was an "understanding" that I would pay it. There is no negotiating with him. I have done so much for them. I babysit most every time they ask, I watch their pets when the go away, loaned them my car when one of their's is in need of service, I even traded him painting the side porch by buying 4 tires for their car. He has now said he will find another place better than mine to live. I told him that would be fine. I have a very nice home, it is old, but I try to keep it maintained and updated. I have had to put a lot of money into their apartment to upgrade because they do not take care of it and I needed to repair things. Their dog dug holes in the wall to wall rug, because they didn't maintain the tile shower, the grout cracked and caused the backing to be water logged and I had to replace the entire shower area and tub. The back porch was full of trash and I finally demanded it be cleared because it became a fire hazard. Any ideas? I love them both, and I dearly love my grandchildren, and it will be sad to see them move. He is very very stubborn, but don't know what else to do.

[joypulv]

This happens to so many people I know! It is easy to give advice and very hard to disentangle all the family ties, I know. Often it's a no win situation because the adult child knows that he is taking advantage and becomes resentful as a cover for guilt and shame over not being more successful in life. And often the child holds the grandkids ransom.

I think I would give him 60 days notice in writing, without mentioning eviction proceedings yet. I would tell him verbally that you and he can work out a rent with NO utilities based on market rents in the area. (You don't say if you have two heating systems or not; if not his rent is tied to the price of oil). He can have 2 pets only. And so on. You are 'trading' too much, I'll bet, not just the painting. You resent pet and babysitting and repairs, yet do it. How does he afford to go away so much anyway? Either disentangle yourself or throw them out.

I've been a landlord; my sister still is, and she does something I like: requires direct deposit of rent straight out of the renter's bank. Autopay.

[twinkiedooter]

He is not stubborn but overly pampered. If you want him to live on his own you better start making tracks to getting him out before he drains you more financially. Start eviction proceedings on him. Let him move out to a better(?) apartment and see just how far his demands will get him with a real landlord.

After pampering him all these years you have only yourself to blame for his lax condition. The more he needs, the more eager you are to step in and help him.

The stubborn stuff is just a "tough act" to pull on mama - and you fall for it every time. Time for you and your husband to lay the law down and stick to it. OR just keep financially dishing out the help and whining that sonny is not grateful.

[ScottGem]

You posted this in Family Law, but you really didn't seem to be asking a legal question. If there is a legal question here, it belongs in Real Estate Law. The legal answer is if you can't afford for them to sponge off you, then you give them a vacate notice and if they don't vacate you file for an eviction.

If you want other advice about dealing with them, post in the Parenting forum.

[Yellowroses]

I could use some advise regarding a son and daughter-in-law who feel extremely entitled. I have a 36 yr. old son, who is married and has three kids, two cats and a dog. Three years ago, he lost his job in another state and decided to move back to our home state. He didn't have a job, so he stayed at my summer place for a minimal fee ($250 a month) until he got back on his feet. I didn't charge him for the first month, but felt it better to charge him something or he wouldn't take care of the place (didn't help). Once he found a job, that was close to my home, he started looking for an apartment. Since I had a two family, and my 2nd floor (7 rooms) was vacant (first mistake), I offered it to them with no money down (no first month, last month or security). Since he had been out of work for some time, I charged him $1,200 with heat and electricity included. All he had to pay was for a phone. I had lived in that apartment before I moved downstairs, and left my washer, refrigerator, portable dishwasher, washer and all my air-conditioners for them to use (they were not included in the lease). I did have him sign a One Year Lease - it stated no trash on the porches or in halls, two pets only (they had two cats). It also stated that I could give him a 30 day notice if things went wrong, or he could do the same. We also agreed to sit down and put things on the "table" when there were any issues. I wanted to be sure things worked out. Well, after a year, he lost his job again, and then had a third child who was born with a medical condition. It was a difficult time for them. I lowered the rent to $1,000 as I had a mortgage and couldn't swing not charging him, but paid for a lot of their food, clothing for the kids and anything else they needed. After a year he started working again, but I left the rent as is to help him get back on his feet. He also got a dog, without asking, and the dog still is not well housebroken (rather - they are not consistent with letting him out) Last year, he came down and told me they were in financial straights, and that they owed a very large cable/phone bill. I offered him to connect to my cable/phone since we were all family, and told him it would only be until he could get things paid off (6 months). Well, needless to say, he never took the cable/phone back, and they are very lax about shutting lights or TVs off when not being used. They had gone away and asked me to watch their pets, and when I went upstairs found they had left two TVs, three air-conditioners, bedroom, kitchen and bathroom lights and a radio on. When I told him, he said that wasn't true. This has happened numerous times and I'm fed up. I decided to have the electricity separated for the two apartments and told him that I was going to do this so he would have his own meter and I wouldn't nag about the lights being left on. He said he understood. Now, that I'm doing it, he is demanding that I go down in the rent. Due to the cost of maintaining the apartment (damages they have caused) and the cost of oil, I cannot go down. I explained that this would be instead of a rent increase. He is now refusing to pay anything additional for the apartment. When I said he needs to take the phone/cable back, he refused and said it was an "understanding" that I would pay it. There is no negotiating with him. I have done so much for them. I babysit most every time they ask, I watch their pets when the go away, loaned them my car when one of their's is in need of service, I even traded him painting the side porch by buying 4 tires for their car. He has now said he will find another place better than mine to live. I told him that would be fine. I have a very nice home, it is old, but I try to keep it maintained and updated. I have had to put a lot of money into their apartment to upgrade because they do not take care of it and I needed to repair things. Their dog dug holes in the wall to wall rug, because they didn't maintain the tile shower, the grout cracked and caused the backing to be water logged and I had to replace the entire shower area and tub. The back porch was full of trash and I finally demanded it be cleared because it became a fire hazard. Any ideas? I love them both, and I dearly love my grandchildren, and it will be sad to see them move. I have been divorced since he was 5 yrs old, and he wasn't like this when he was younger. Now grown, he is very very arrogant - any advice would be helpful.

[smoothy]

Sorry to say this but the time for tough love is now... in fact its overdue.

Lay down the law... if you still want to have him in your property... have a proper and legal lease drawn up just as you would for any other tenant. Make sure all utilities are separate and in his name. He doesn't pay... they get cut off.

He signs the new lease (assuming the old one isn't still in effect) or you have him served with 30 day notice to vacate or you evict. Make him also pay a security deposit for any future damages too as part of that lease.

Damages afterwards... treat him just like any other tenant.

He does this because he has gotten away with it for far too many years.

If he doesn't abide by the rules... and the lease. Then have him evicted. He's not going to get away with this anywhere else... why should you have to put up with it.

Hopefully a double helping of reality will make him start acting like an adult again.

[joypulv]

I'm sympathetic (as I was when this was under Law) but you do contradict yourself, even though it's understandable. It seems to start with your statement 'There is no negotiating with him.' Tenants rarely if ever get to negotiate with landlords, yet do all the time with parents, so it really is a collision of two worlds, and he should leave as he's saying he will. Starting with that formal notice in writing from you to him. I have a feeling that he is bluffing. If the kids are bargaining chips, say that you will babysit X times a week if he lives X miles away or less.

[Fr_Chuck]

Sorry he does not feel entitled, he is because you are doing it.

He can not do or expect or get anything unless you allow it.

You keep offering more and more and more, what do you expect will happen.
And of course you don't negotiate, you tell him what it is or else, Negotiate means you are willing to allow him to do less.

And the minute he starts using the kids as a threat or weapon, he needs to be thrown out, I most likely would not even do it legally, I would just throw him out for such a threat, but here I have to advise you to do it legally, give him that 30 day notice and kick him to the curb.

[Fr_Chuck]

Please do not cut and paste the same question over and over in different areas. You only need to ask it once,

I have deleted one of the threads and combined the other two.

[Dr1757]

Cut him loose, the longer this goes on the worse it gets. This is a major problem in the US, many people feel they are entitled to a free ride at someone else's expense.