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Raider777 · Nov 13, 2013, 09:50 AM

Hi,
I have a dilema. I work in IT and when looking on a co-workers computer for software that I needed, I found a folder with some material in it that freaked me out. I think I know what the right thing to do is, but I don't know how to do it. I found a hidden folder with pictures of employees (female) that were very improper. I'm pretty sure these girls aren't giving pictures to this individual. So, it leads me to suspect that the pictures were somehow taken privately.

How do I approach this? Do I go straight to HR or go to my manager? Or do I set up a meeting with both and just drop the bomb on them?

Please help..

ScottGem · Nov 13, 2013, 09:58 AM

First, the Forum Help area is for question about using this forum. I moved your post to a more appropriate forum.

If the pics were not of current employees, I would be more inclined to not be a snitch. But If I'm getting your drift, these appear to be pictures of current employees surreptitiously taken without the approval or knowledge of those employees.

This is criminal behavior in most places. And if someone finds out, the company could be in trouble. So yes, I would report this to HR.

Raider777 · Nov 13, 2013, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

First, the Forum Help area is for question about using this forum. I moved your post to a more appropriate forum.

If the pics were not of current employees, I would be more inclined to not be a snitch. But If I'm getting your drift, these appear to be pictures of current employees surreptitiously taken without the approval or knowledge of those employees.

This is criminal behavior in most places. And if someone finds out, the company could be in trouble. So yes, I would report this to HR.

Do I go straight to HR or bring in my direct manager as well? I'm afraid that if I bring in others that are not HR, it will get swept under the rug. This puts a lot of IT folks in risk due to this behavior... We're responsible for sensitive data, financials, etc... I'm not afraid of being a snitch, but afraid of losing my job and feeding my family.

joypulv · Nov 13, 2013, 10:35 AM

Go to whomever you sense is best but do it now, today.
I don't know why bringing in others means it will be swept under the rug. You are the one who has an idea of what your company is like. I don't know of a rule of thumb for involvement.
Bring it up first as a situation without names: 'I found compromising pictures of employees on someone's computer here.'
(There's no chance the pictures were taken with their permission, I take it.)

ScottGem · Nov 13, 2013, 11:59 AM

I would start with your boss. Do as Joy suggested and start with explain that you found the pics in the course of performing your normal duties. Don't mention names at first. When you saw them you became concerned about the company's liability if they should be found as well as the privacy of the subjects. Ask that your boss go with you to HR to report it.

Raider777 · Nov 14, 2013, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I would start with your boss. Do as Joy suggested and start with explain that you found the pics in the course of performing your normal duties. Don't mention names at first. When you saw them you became concerned about the company's liability if they should be found as well as the privacy of the subjects. Ask that your boss go with you to HR to report it.

So, went and talked to my boss and after the discussion he deleted all the files and then went and talked to HR or at least that's what he said he did. Now, I'm wondering if it is getting swept under the rug like I suspected. I guess the only thing I can do is just follow up with HR to be sure it was really reported accurately. Not wanting anyone to get into trouble, but just want to make sure it doesn't happen again and that it is dealt with properly.

ScottGem · Nov 14, 2013, 06:52 AM

You did what you are responsible for. Its not up to you to follow-up. If you want to CYA, send your boss an e-mail thanking him for helping you with this issue.

This gives you a record that you reported it properly so you are covered. The only other thing I would do is check this person's PC in a month or so, to see if there is a recurrence of new photos.

joypulv · Nov 14, 2013, 08:59 AM

Going back to HR to check is not a good political move. The HR person will see you as someone who goes around your boss and who doesn't trust him or her. It could put a blot on your future, even if never written into your file.

I suppose this will put a bee in your bonnet, but I would be wondering if this person has another copy of the file at home. Depending on how and where the pictures were taken, I might put my job on the line and tell the people whose pictures you saw. I know no other way to deal with it even if you lose your job (and then maybe sue). In other words, don't the women have a right to know their pictures were taken, and might still be out there?
It might be a police matter if you chose to tell the women. You say they were 'very improper' and truthfully all I can think of is the ladies' room. Care to tell us in general the nature of the pictures, and how many women there were?
Another approach you could take is to meet with the women and swear them to say they didn't find out from you, let them deal with it, and hope that they do keep you out of it. With the boss and the HR person now being at least 2 other people who know, I think you are safe in denying everything. Of course that doesn't mean the company will believe you, but the law has to.

ScottGem · Nov 14, 2013, 09:36 AM

The only way you have liability here is if someone knows you saw the pics and but did nothing. That's why I suggested you document that you reported it to your boss. That covers you.

Personally, I wouldn't have deleted the pics. At least not without documenting that they were there. Depending on what these pics represent, this person may be charged criminally. Your boss may have gotten himself in trouble by destroying evidence of a crime.

I'm inclined to agree with joy about talking to some of the victims. Especially if these pics were taken in some place this person shouldn't be. Its one thing if these are up skirt pics which could have been taken anywhere. Its another if they are hidden cam pics. They may be able to find the cam and they don't have to say it was you that gave them the idea to look for it.

smearcase · Nov 14, 2013, 09:58 AM

I don't think that telling the women and getting them to swear they won't say who told them is practical. If this develops into something bigger (which it sounds like it certainly should), you will be called upon to tell what you found. Especially if the photos have been deleted you are the only one who can say they were there except that there will be a record somewhere on a server (scott knows much better than I about that aspect).
If it does go further, the ladies will have to give you up at some point and you may become the scapegoat for the company, that you were a party to covering it up. I am not in the job market nowadays, but anyone putting their job in jeopardy for any cause other than their own cause- is foolish.
You don't give enough details about the photos or whether they were from a hidden camera or not. Maybe the ladies posed for them- we are just guessing.

joypulv · Nov 14, 2013, 10:07 AM

I disagree about giving you up, because you told your boss, and the boss supposedly told HR, so there's a minimum of 2 others who could have leaked it. Others could have overheard too.
She/he could even contact the women anonymously.
One thing that is still tugging at me though is the belief that ' I'm pretty sure these girls aren't giving pictures to this individual.'
These days I am constantly amazed at what women will willingly reveal. So this could all be moot. Unless OP is going to give us some clues about the nature of the pictures.

Raider777 · Nov 14, 2013, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by smearcase

I don't think that telling the women and getting them to swear they won't say who told them is practical. If this develops into something bigger (which it sounds like it certainly should), you will be called upon to tell what you found. Especially if the photos have been deleted you are the only one who can say they were there except that there will be a record somewhere on a server (scott knows much better than I about that aspect).
If it does go further, the ladies will have to give you up at some point and you may become the scapegoat for the company, that you were a party to covering it up. I am not in the job market nowadays, but anyone putting their job in jeopardy for any cause other than their own cause- is foolish.
You don't give enough details about the photos or whether they were from a hidden camera or not. Maybe the ladies posed for them- we are just guessing.

Well,
I am going to follow up with HR to be sure that what I said to my boss is what was accurately reported. Since I am in IT and have the responsibility for the privacy of my users, it's the right thing to do regardless of whether I lose my job. From my best guess, it looks like the person who is a network admin was able to go into their phones via their PC as a local admin and take these photos off their phone, then store them on his hard drive under a hidden folder. I didn't delete the folder along with the photos, my director did.

I didn't walk down to HR with him when he went and had that discussion, so I don't know what was said. Even though he deleted the evidence, I still have proof that these photos were there and who's computer they were on. Since I feared what has happened, I took precautions to make sure I didn't turn out to be a liar. My goal isn't to get anyone in trouble, but to respect and protect the privacy of my customers, which are our users. If my wife decided to spice up our marriage and take photos of herself for me and they were taken from her phone at work, I'd be pretty upset and would want to know that the company she worked for had taken the necessary steps to be sure this type of behavior doesn't happen again.

Others may disagree and think I'm a snitch, but there still are people out here that have ethics and morals.

Users should feel safe that they aren't being violated. And those that are violating the privacy of others should be called out to be sure that this type of behavior doesn't repeat. It could start small and snow ball into worse and worse behavior. Nip it in the bud and hopefully the behavior will be tamed...

ScottGem · Nov 14, 2013, 10:51 AM

I totally disagree with going to HR over his head.

I don't think you are a snitch, but by going over his head, you are risking your job for naught.

Are these phones company phones or personal ones. Are you sure these are pics that they had on their phones and were not taken by the computer user who's PC you found them on?

joypulv · Nov 14, 2013, 11:09 AM

If you are going to HR, I would go as someone with an ethical dilemma of right not to have anything stolen off a phone vs caveat emptor about lack of security and privacy by owning a phone and using it this way. Plus the right to know the pics were stolen.
The employee of course should be fired.
You need to know where you stand if he isn't fired, and where you stand regarding telling the women, before you go to HR.

smearcase · Nov 14, 2013, 11:26 AM

Your second post:
" I'm not afraid of being a snitch, but afraid of losing my job and feeding my family. "
Now:
"... it's the right thing to do regardless of whether I lose my job."

You have given some additional thought to all this, obviously.

Maybe he wanted the photos for blackmail type purposes or intimidation or whatever. Or could there be a legitimate purpose for taking them from their phones- depends on his authority and responsibilities. Do employees know that their phones (company phones I assume) can be accessed in this manner?

If what he did is beyond his authority, and you really feel a duty, and are not worried about your job, talk to HR and tell them you need to know how this was handled for the exact reasons you stated in your previous post (# 12). They could possibly have something in the works because of this incident.
Like monitoring the activities of the ladies and the guy who had the photos, and your talking to any of them could cause HR some problems.

If those ladies knew that their phones could be accessed in that manner, and put those photos on their phones anyhow, they pretty much made their own beds.

ScottGem · Nov 14, 2013, 11:53 AM

As luck would have it, our HR dept is going through its annual Sexual Harassment training. So I put this up to them. Their feeling jived with mine in that as long as you have it covered that you reported it properly through channels, you are good. And that going directly to HR might be putting your boss' job in jeopardy which could affect you.

If you really want to go to HR, do it with the tact that you are just trying to follow-up to find out what action was taken.

joypulv · Nov 14, 2013, 11:55 AM

(We don't know yet if these were company phones, but I doubt it.)

Raider777 · Nov 14, 2013, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by smearcase

Your second post:
" I'm not afraid of being a snitch, but afraid of losing my job and feeding my family. "
Now:
"... it's the right thing to do regardless of whether I lose my job."

You have given some additional thought to all this, obviously.

Maybe he wanted the photos for blackmail type purposes or intimidation or whatever. Or could there be a legitimate purpose for taking them from their phones- depends on his authority and responsibilities. Do employees know that their phones (company phones I assume) can be accessed in this manner?

If what he did is beyond his authority, and you really feel a duty, and are not worried about your job, talk to HR and tell them you need to know how this was handled for the exact reasons you stated in your previous post (# 12). They could possibly have something in the works because of this incident.
Like monitoring the activities of the ladies and the guy who had the photos, and your talking to any of them could cause HR some problems.

If those ladies knew that their phones could be accessed in that manner, and put those photos on their phones anyhow, they pretty much made their own beds.

"If those ladies knew that their phones could be accessed in that manner, and put those photos on their phones anyhow, they pretty much made their own beds."

I'm pretty positive that these ladies or anyone that has a cell phone while at work would assume that IT would go in and snoop around their phone while it's docked into their computer.

Would it be safe to assume then that IT at most locations has a right to just look through users phones and take what they want? And if they did that, did the user have it coming because they should have just known that's what happens? I don't think that IT has any right to violate the privacy of an individual's cell phone.
I'm in IT and I take my job very seriously, so if my network admins were sniffing through my phone and took a picture that I had of my wife when I had it plugged into the computer, should I not be upset, because I shouldn't have had that photo of her on my own personal device that I use at work?

Regardless of why he had those photos, whether it was to black mail them or pleasure himself is beside the point that he had them in a hidden folder. That tells me he didn't want them found, but was too stupid and lazy to figure out that we in IT can view hidden folders.

I went through the proper channels by going to my director before I went to HR. If my director is sweeping it under the rug and didn't report it, but told me he did and then deleted the files, why would I be the one at risk of being fired?

When I say I'm not afraid of losing my job, I meant losing my job for doing the right thing. I am afraid of losing my job for doing the wrong thing like hiding unethical behavior.

What kind of screwed up world is this that doing the right thing can get your fired? Sounds like there's a lot of justification for why having those photos in a hidden folder of ladies that are not his wife that are current employees who more than likely don't know that he's got pics of them, is an OK thing to have on his computer. A lot of justification of why invading others privacy rights isn't wrong seems to unethical to me. Maybe I was born in the wrong period of history, but I would think that this is something you should not do...

smearcase · Nov 14, 2013, 12:19 PM

Well, if private phones, this would be a whole new ballgame, wouldn't it?

Raider777 · Nov 14, 2013, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by smearcase

Well, if private phones, this would be a whole new ballgame, wouldn't it?

Don't know the answer to that if they are private phones. I would guess that they are, because the company doesn't issue phones out to non-c level employees. These aren't c-level employees, so more than likely these are private phones.

Suppose they are work phones, when does the privacy of an individual stop? What limitations are there on privacy of individuals whether in a public company or a private company?

What if you use company paid internet at home, does IT have the right to log into your home computer and snoop through your computer?

Because you use an ISP, do they have the right to go through your stuff? Your house is being taxed by the city/county/state do they have a right to just bust down your door and take your stuff? Do individuals have rights to privacy? Do individuals have rights?