[Thomas1970]

Hi Notre Dame. Thank you. I think the important thing is to try and see the situation not as either of you having a problem, but more as both of you seeking understanding in some way. Asking someone to admit that they have a problem, regardless of whether they do or not, puts them in a very awkward position. When people feel ready to change, often they will admit there is something they do not like about their behavior. But often people truly are incapable of seeing how their actions affect those both near and far to them, and not only themselves.
What he does need to understand, is that there is an essential gap in your communication that needs to be overcome. Being in a mixed marriage as you said in your first post, he must have understood before he married you, that your beliefs and values may vary considerably. Hopefully that is a part of what initially attracted him, and made you of such interest to him. A process of discovery, one that you are still going through. Marriage is a life-long process, not a static union. I know that Fredg has pointed out many times, the need to adapt, allow and forgive. On the part of both parties.
Have him try to envision, that both of you were speaking to each other in your native languages, whatever they might be. You might each understand some of what the other was saying, but maybe, in some circumstances, not enough to have a deep meaningful interaction. And yet, just because you are unable to understand more fully, doesn't mean you necessarily don't have a healthy respect and appreciation for the other's form of communication. You might then likely seek out a skilled interpreter. Someone with a good understanding of both sides. Hopefully some one who could distill things into a simpler form, though was careful not to alter the essential essence of what was said by either.
He needs to understand that a marriage counselor isn't there to pick sides or judge, neither is he a referee. His job is to act as a very skilled translator, someone who can help foster a greater understanding between the two of you. I think that is all anyone really wants. Respect and understanding.
I think you already have an excellent understanding of the situation though. In Western psychology they often refer to Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development. One of the final stages prior to abstract thought, is something to the effect of, "It is acceptable as long as I am not caught." This is the typical behavior exhibited by many people in their mid-teens, and the reason why in most countries, juvenile offenders who commit minor crimes are given a chance to start with a clean slate upon reaching adulthood. It is understood that parts of the brain that control impulsive behavior, such as the prefrontal cortex are not yet fully developed. They are unable to look far enough forward into the future to envision the likely consequences of their actions. Even if they are, they often feel inadequately equipped to deal with the moment's dominant impulse, and often make relatively poor choices regardless. What isn't better understood, is the fact that some people simply never achieve higher levels of abstract thought. The reasons aren't really all that well known. Some people are simply more inclined to operate on more strictly concrete level. "It either is or it isn't", "I either did or I didn't." But life is all about shades of grey. The moment anything in life comes too sharply in focus, everything begins to look a bit harsh. It all has to do with a very human predilection toward being inherently dissatisfied.
Both parties in a marriage have to learn not to view things in terms of dualistic thinking; or to have a tendency to put things under a microscope, reading too deeply into them. Both of you can be right to a degree from your own respective stances, but this is simply a situation, where to a degree, you may have to agree to disagree.
Though, that having been said... I respect the fact that some here may not necessarily agree with me, but I am more inclined to side heavily with you; mostly in the sense, that I feel that peoples cultural and spiritual beliefs are two things that you typically do not disrespect. (Politics are another matter entirely. :) ) He must have known what yours were before you married, and I do feel part of his vow was to honor those beliefs and practices, whether he chooses to be an active part of them or not. Pornography is simply a hobby, if some would choose to call it that. Certainly of no great importance or lasting value.
Even if he or someone else fantasies about others - certain not abnormal or necessarily unhealthy - he instinctively knows where his true needs are met. And I think to a large degree you feel the same way, evidenced by the fact that you are here, open to hearing all of our advice as to how best to renconcile.
I agree with Chery, if everything else is good in your marriage, it is certainly worth fighting for and hanging onto. Though I very much agree with you as well. Many people mistake love and attachment. You are right that love is never selfish. Attachment is often fostered by comfortable routine, history, and a healthy fear of change. Love, though not always completely comfortable or easy, is about the altruistic joy we feel in meeting others deepest needs.
Though it is hard to say whether there is an element of selfishness involved, certainly no one would choose porn over a living, vibrant relationship, unless there were some primarily emotional issue in their life they were looking to avoid.
The only thing I could say, would be to be polite, caring and understanding. But at the same time, be assertive in the way you address the situation. Remind him that it is a union you undertook together, and you have a right to have your needs met as well, and not only when it is convenient, or after his are met first. It's all about compromise. Just try to make him understand that you need to be heard, and if he has a remote in his hand and isn't looking you in the eye, he isn't truly listening with all of his being or intent. But most importantly, try to make him understand the fact that it is only human to need to know and feel that he values you infinitely more than his movie collection. After all, it isn't Silicone Barbie that likely washes his clothes, cooks his meals, and keeps him warm at night. I think you both have to decide what is most important to both of you, but I really do feel he just needs to grow a little bit more, and get his true priorities in order. Though do continue to try to be understanding. Sometimes people simply take the easier things for granted, and don't really appreciate what they have until they no longer have the opportunity to choose. Life is never really easy alone. I only hope, if you do feel you can't live with this particular activity of his, he realizes these things sooner rather than later. Though a bit of personal space is crucial in a healthy marriage, in this situation, in light of the circumstances, I don't really feel he should be making a choice at all. Certainly not forcing you into a position where you feel that you need to make one.
Anyhow... Good luck. I wish you the best, and I hope you can convince him soon. We'll all continue to be here to offer whatever help and support we can.

[letmeno]

Fredg, if you dont hide absolutly nothing from your spouse, and I mean it NOTHING! why would you hide things from them?? If I thought about leaving him its because I felt betrayed, I felt disrespected, I felt usless...I never found him with another women but I found on his detailed bill that he talked to his ex once for almost an hour, again he never said he was keeping in touch with her, and why couldnt he talk to her in front of me? another time I found a number from Europe and again by curiosity I called, it was some psycho that had her add in a sex dating web site!! he totally denied it and said many people uses his cell, so probably someone called!! its his lies that I can't put up with, if he was just honnest and open about everything, I'd be the first one to help...as for counselling :))) hehehe I laugh because I'm willing to do it from tomorrow, anything to make this marriage a happy one and a successful one, and have wonderful babies, but he says it's all in my head and I'm make a drama out of things, while I'm sure if it was me, he would have done what nobody can imagine!!
He is a great guy, I love him so much, but if he only never lied, now to build up the trust back seems like a real difficult thing to me!!
Thnx for the advise, different views make the problem less sensitive!1

He hid this because he knew never in a million years would you understand or accept this.
I'm not married but I am engaged, my guy used to lie about the simplest of things.
I got fed up with the needless string of lies and asked him "WHY" The answer he gave to me was "Because I don't have an excuse that would make you happy" :eek:
If I asked him to wash my car, and he didn't he would lie about a death in the family before he would admit that he was simply screwing off with the guy's and forgot.
Notre Dame, if you get to the bottom of this tangled web of lies, email me. Just like your husband, my guy is a real catch too. No one is perfect and this is a flaw that we have to work through.

[rubycat]

Porn will destroy you, it will destroy your husband desire for you and eventually you marriage.
Anyone who has read my previous posts will know how my H secret viewing of porn has affected me. To his own admission he vbecame distatisfied with my body (which is a normal healthy fit body of a mother of 4) simply because he compared it to the standrds of 20yr olds who had bever lived life or carried a child.. He compalined abut stretch marks and my breast not being 'perky enough'. After six months in counseling and many many hours reading up on this ever increasing problem we have discovered that studeies have proven that viewing of even mild forms of porn causes men to view their partners as less attractive. How can this be good for a marriage?? One of the previous writers said 'your husband has rights" well yes he does have the right to do as he pleases but this does not mean you have to put up with it. Simply put... YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE WITH A MAN WHO HONOURS AND RESPECTS YOU and does not feel women's bodies are pieces of meat to be lusted after. Of course we may always find others arttractive (this is normal) but he really has no place viewing the naked bodies of women who he has no relationship with... I personally believe that women are not confident or assertive enough with this issue. Society tries teeling us... this is normal... try it with him... if you don't like it your insecure... RUBBISH. Secure women respect themselves and demand the same respect from those who they have intimate relationships with... Best wishes.

[rubycat]

PS Try this site it has great advise and boards for the increasing number of women who's lives are being destroyed by porn and the men in recovery from this problem

http://www.no-porn.com/

[Chery]

PS Try this site it has great advise and boards for the increasing number of women who's lives are being destroyed by porn and the men in recovery from this problem

http://www.no-porn.com/

I just got through looking at this site and one 'eye catcher' among other interesting things that can be paid for was:

Soluton 2: Sculptor 3. Easy-to-install software that can literally reprogram your brain to overcome lust addiction. Especially helpful for those who prefer not to work in "group" recovery.

This, included with all other things that can be bought and downloaded is just as much an advertisement as those sites that they call objectionable...

My opinion is that if people don't want to change, nobody and nothing can do it for them. There are also different degrees of use/abuse of products of this modern world today. One can take a drink or two with dinner, or can become an alcoholic. This is called self-control, but one cannot use it if never taught how. And since we are all human, and each of us have our weaknesses and strengths, with these also come choices. Every choice we make has a reason and if one needs a 'crutch' it is to augment something in life, missing to begin with. If one seeks approval and does not get it then a 'crutch' is looked for. If one is insecure, again, look for that crutch. If one does not feel satisfied - oops - where's that crutch? If a promise is broken - bring out the crutch..
On can associate a crutch - something to lean on - with a type of greed also:
greed: materialism, possessiveness; appetite, craving, hankering, hunger, itch, longing, lust, passion, ravenousness, thirst, voracity, yearning, yen (all of which are wants and need of some sort)

If you can associate any part of your life, love, marriage, etc with any of the above definitions then you will understand that something was missing in the first place and was not fulfilled.

Just as the 'hole' in the "Autobiography in Five Short Chapters, by Portia Nelson" on the site mentioned - Why was that hole not sealed????

Again, my opinion - you knew of your husband's interest before you married him - this is a fact.

Another fact is that it's so easy to blame bad marriages on other people and things - especially the modern society and technology, right? Evolution is on-going and if not willing to accept that then we are in the wrong place or time.

There are many good things in life and we should be grateful for that. But we cannot deny the bad things in life and just 'ban' them if we don't approve of them, or they are making our lives uncomfortable - therefore giving us a scapegoat so that we will not have to try to work on keeping our lives and loves comfortable and happy.

As I said before, porn is a fact of life and I weigh the alternatives which could be a lot worse. So, we get back to the basics of CHOICE. Wising you all the best in the choices you make, and Happy Halloween!

[rubycat]

Hi Cherry, Yes tyhere is a lot of rubbish on all websites like this advertising and personally I don't go there to read ads or to send my husvband there . I go there for the support of other women. In relation to your statement that I knew my husbands interests before marrying him... that actually is wrong. When we first met I made my view on the degrading nature of porn very clear and he said he agreed with me. However several years (and a family) into our marriage I discivered it. Through taking bad advice such as 'all men do it , its natural etc I tried going with the flow for some time (despite the fact it ate away at me) Interestingly enough, the therapist we are seeing (who incidentally is very experienced) has told us that she is seeing more and more couples where the men are losing sexual desirte for their partners as a result of comparing them to porn...


So rather than kill the messenger I suggest you do some research as accept the fact that for some men PORN does make their partner a less attractive option. If this though scares you, then ask yourself why you are getting defensive. Ask your man I'm sure he'll give the standard reply... 'Of course not you know I love you bla blah blah.. " And if you chooose to believe this then your choice should be respected. Personbally I believe a life with my head in the sand is no option for me... Sorry if I sound a little peeved... but I am opening up by telling people my situation and as far as Im concerned nobody has the right to dismiss my experiences.

[rubycat]

Chery I just wanted to add that I do realise you were trying to offer helpful advice and I apologize if my above post sounds harshI do agree that nobody can change another person unless they want to change. Experiencing a marriage where your husband blantantly tells you day after day that you don't look like a porn star and therefore he could never be happy with you... is a hard pill to swallow. Since giving up the porn our marriage has I'm[proved SOOO much and his desire for me is very strong...

[Chery]

Chery I just wanted to add that I do realise you were trying to offer helpful advice and I apologize if my above post sounds harshI do agree that nobody can change another person unless they want to change. Experiencing a marriage where your husband blantantly tells you day after day that you dont look like a porn star and therefore he could never be happy with you...is a hard pill to swallow. Since giving up the porn our marriage has im[proved SOOO much and his desire for me is very strong....

Dear Rubycat, you did not upset me or make me feel berated. You needed to vent what you feel and that's OK, as your therapist would tell you. I understand where a lot of women who are compared to 'porn stars' can get sick and tired of this and want to do something about it. You did the right thing for you and your husband by seeing a therapist together. Most women, after hearing what you did, would have left the guy, no matter how many years invested. My last post was not directed towards you personally - for the main part directed towards that site and women who do nothing but dwell in their insecurities and seek blame elsewhere without doing anything as constructive as you did. After going through what you have, you can see that there are other women who have not reached this point and you can help them with your experience - which I hope you will. Again, glad it's working for you and wish you all the best. C. U. on this forum more often, I hope...

P.S. My b/f and I watched two within four years and they did nothing for us at all, so I guess it's up to each individual and their perspective on things of this nature.

[rubycat]

Thanks Chery, Yes It's a difficult topic and one which we are seeing more and more presented in discussion forums etc( guess it will only keep increasing). Its excellent that your parner doesn't see what the fuss is about with porn I only wish more men were like this...
I understand whaen you say it is directed towards those who gripe but do nothing about it... It is frustrating to see women who are clearly hurt by this topic but don't seem able to have the confidence to say to their fellas 'hey make a choice'. I feel this is probably because from a yt=young age girls are programmed to try and please men. If there ppartner seem unsatisfied they can tend to try and change themselves instead of staying confident in who they are... and realsieing the problem lies with him... Anyway thanks again for your reply best wishes ruby

[Chery]

To you too dear. Remember that when you help others with the same problem, it will help you strengthen you position and remind you that you are one of the 'survivors'! We all get tested in many ways we don't understand, but there usually is a purpose. Take care and keep us posted.

[talaniman]

As a 51 year old married male in reasonably good health,I still get the little tingles that "moving pictures" can provide.During our 30's and late 40's it was cool as I always talked to my wife and she talked to me so now because it means a lot to her I just don't do the porn thing at home on my PC or any where else for that matter BUT,is it okay to look at sports illustrated or mtv ? Come on I'm a long way from being dead and females still turn me on I wouldn't do anything about it though(except if wifey lets me) Marriage is a long term thing that both sides must be very comfortable with,and work at, You just can't say If only I'd know, and I'm not a pervert if a little porn crosses my path every and then.Honesty(you should hear some of our conversations) and communication have served both of us very well over the years as we grow together ,and it is about respect.Trust me we both give and take a little every now and then.After 30 some years it works for us! :cool: :)

[Chery]

As a 51 year old married male in reasonably good health,I still get the little tingles that "moving pictures" can provide.During our 30's and late 40's it was cool as I always talked to my wife and she talked to me so now because it means a lot to her I just don't do the porn thing at home on my pc or any where else for that matter BUT,is it okay to look at sports illustrated or mtv ? Come on I'm a long way from being dead and females still turn me on I wouldn't do anything about it though(except if wifey lets me) Marriage is a long term thing that both sides must be very comfortable with,and work at, You just can't say If only i'd know, and I'm not a pervert if a little porn crosses my path every and then.Honesty(you should hear some of our conversations) and communication have served both of us very well over the years as we grow together ,and it is about respect.Trust me we both give and take a little every now and then.After 30 some years it works for us!! :cool: :)

Dear, it's a known fact the everyone, men and women look at the menu and most make the choice to 'eat at home'. Here in Europe, late at night you see women stripping on TV and most men look at them. There are also sexline commercials with the boobs right in your face, that's fine for those who need it. Prostitution is also legal in Germany, as long as the girls have licenses and get checkups, they pay their taxes. If they were not needed, they'd be out of business. There are also porn movies in open shelves at video rental shops, but you must prove you are 18 or over to rent them. This in itself should be enough for the healthy man and usually is, but there are still perverts everywhere in the world who rape young children and women, just as rampant as those men that commit robbery and murder. It all depends on the ethnic and moral fiber of each of us on how we handle the stimuli to our brains and onward or 'downward'. I know couples who go to movies of this type together and still have a healthy marriage, so, again - to each his own, as long as those who don't want to be involved are not forced to participate. Your partnership certainly seems not to have been harmed by what I think is sometimes just healthy couriosity which is controllable. Besides, what happens between consenting adults is nobody else's business but their own. I just object to children being used as they do not have a choice. So keep on enjoying life with your partner and all the best. We all have a vice or two anyway. ;)

[talaniman]

That's what I meant(I think, Let me wake up my wife and see what she says! I am not allowed vices ,what are they?? :o ) :confused:

[Chery]

Thats what I meant(I think, Let me wake up my wife and see what she says! I am not allowed vices ,what are they??? :o ) :confused:

Now that was cute! - can I get you cloned? Vices are just those little extras you get when you're good, like a lolly at the doctor after a shot... ha ha.. But I have a feeling if you don't let the boss sleep, you'll be cut off..

[talaniman]

I get treats when Ive been good and she says vices will get my treats cut off.Can't have that can we?? :rolleyes: Personally I think women take things to far with too much drama and certainly after 3 years there is still a lot to learn.No one should control another and comunication is very important in dealing with feelings that later will cause problems in early relationships.If a man watches porn even a lot does he do other things to take care of house and home?come on every one needs a degree of privacy to do whatever and why not just back off and let em' have their own fun.If I wore a beard when you married me don't say you hate my beard shave it off! Men and women need to learn to relax and give each other space and respect.Over time we all change(for the better I hope)but you can't change someone else only yourself and that is only if you want to!To get undersanding you have to give understanding! :) :cool:

[Chery]

If I wore a beard when you married me don't say you hate my beard shave it off! Men and women need to learn to relax and give each other space and respect.Over time we all change(for the better I hope)but you can't change someone else only yourself and that is only if you want to!To get undersanding you have to give understanding! :) :cool:

This is exactly the point. Most people need to realize that you can't change anyone but yourself and your attitude towards life. Without that respect and understanding there is no hope from the get-go. We all know for a fact that some people walk down that isle thinking of all the things that will be 'changed' from now on, well in these cases, they should not have walked the isle in the first place. When one says the 'yes' word, it means not just yes to all the good looks, money and happy fantasies of following a set of routines - we must consider the other one we are saying 'yes' to, not just the 'status', and start accepting the fact that nobody is 100 percent perfect but it is possible to accept this and 'grow' together. Wishing you many more years of happiness and 'understanding'. That's what life is about.

To All!

[DJ 'H']

"To love someone is to understand each other, to laugh together, to smile with your heart and to trust one another. One important thing is to let each other go if you can't do this." - this is a quote which I firmly stand by and thought would be appropriate for this thread.

[Bobbie Ann]

Hi, I'm new here. And I was just wondering how far will my husband take it? He has the books, three or four tapes, print outs of hundreds of pictures of women ( without clothes ). On the internet, he watches movies and whatever else. Sex between the two of us, is limited to maybe at least twice a month. In that department he has change completely. It's more like he's doing me a favor, then anything else. I could go on but my story would turn into a novel. Any idea?
Is there a chance that he will take it outside the home?
He even had a websit on how to meet singles, when I confronted him about it, he said that someone sent it to him, which of cause I don't believe, so if anyone could give me some advice,

[Chery]

Hi, I'm new here. And I was just wondering how far will my husband take it? He has the books, three or four tapes, print outs of hundreds of pictures of women ( without clothes ). On the internet, he watches movies and whatever else. Sex between the two of us, is limited to maybe at least twice a month. In that department he has change completely. It's more like he's doing me a favor, then anything else. I could go on but my story would turn into a novel. Any idea?
Is there a chance that he will take it outside the home?
He even had a website on how to meet singles, when I confronted him about it, he said that someone sent it to him, which of cause I don't believe, so if anyone could give me some advice,

Welcome to the forum. Ask yourself some questions: Did he have this hobby before you married. Have you changed your attitude or appearance (i.e. gained weight, wearing gym clothes at home, no make-up, etc) since you've been married? Do you still do some of the things together that you did before, or have you turned into a 'homebody'?
Now that you are married, has your attitude towards sex and fantasies changed? Do you find yourself nagging more than complimenting? All of these questions could apply to him too - so see is he has changed any other than the 'secret books and pics'. Has he asked you to try new things that you don't agree with, and therefore not as enthusiastic with him in bed?
I think you need a long talk with him, or even a pro and con list about what you still like about each other, and then compare them. Last but not least, try getting him to see a counselor with you if you and he want this relationship to work. Otherwise, you might just console yourself to living with him like brother and sister - which I'm sure you don't want. You both have to invest in this relationship, and if one of you is not willing, consider leaving this behind and starting over. Good luck in no matter what choice and outcome. Please keep us posted. A Friend of mine suggests a pretty good site, check it out together and see if you have common issues.

www.lovetactics.com

[crissywolfe]

I've been married for almost 3 years also and I've had to deal with my husband lying about porn constantly throughout our whole relationship. I'm going to counseling- we tried marriage counseling, but we ended up fighting every time. I totally agree with you about how it dimenishes your self-esteem. When I first met him, I had a ton of confidence- now- not so much. He's never had an affair and I, too, feel like an FBI agent- always on the lookout for the next thing he's hiding and hoping I don't find something else. I do suggest counseling-at least the first few sessions to really let it be known how you feel with someone there to mediate. With someone in the middle they can help you guys come to a compromise and help you and HIM understand what exactly is going on and how you guys feel. Honestly, if he wasn't doing something he's ashamed of he wouldn't be doing it behind your back. Set boundaries and let him know that what he's doing a not acceptable in a relationship that you're going to be in. My husband finally got that I was hurting and stopped for a few months, but then retaliated because he felt "immasculated". They won't change their attitudes, but they can change their actions. Hopefully, you can sit down and have a heart to heart and really let him know how you feel. You can't change someone- they have to want to change themselves. I'm convinced they won't change until they really get knocked upside the head with reality. P.S. My husband and I are also a step away from divorce because of porn. Too many LIES!